False, it turns out, in the case of Somali pirates:
U.S. negotiators told pirates holding four American hostages off the coast of Somalia that they would not be allowed to go ashore with their captives, U.S. officials said, one of several moves that increased pressure on the pirates before the hostages were killed Tuesday.
The warning that the U.S. intended to prevent the pirates from taking the hostages onto Somali soil was communicated early in the four-day standoff as Navy ships shadowed the 58-foot yacht carrying 19 Somalis and their prisoners, the officials said.
“The thought was, if these guys succeed in getting the hostages to shore, we have almost no leverage anymore,” a U.S. Defense official said.
In a normal hostage negotiation, authorities want to 1) control the situation in order to, 2) prevent it from getting any worse. But once the pirates understood that they were not going to be allowed to go ashore with their “booty”, the hostages were worthless to them. Their humanity apparently counted for nothing.
So why not kill them, then move forward, empty your hands, surrender and await your trial?
Lessons: People everywhere are really not the same. We don’t understand these people.
Somehow, trying to “negotiate” with people who live in pretty much real poverty, in a lawless land, where death is but a regular part of the landscape and real power of life and death commands the environment seems to keep coming up as “FAIL!” for our wonderful “law enforcement” efforts with real pirates.
When will we ever learn?
Fewer and fewer foreigners ‘fear’ the wrath of the United States anymore. We need more gunboat diplomacy – bring back the battleships. Then, take the surviving 15 pirates from this event, line them all up on the fantail, and declare them guilty of piracy on the high seas. Then summary execution by high speed lead injection. All televised and published on youtube. And, be consistent – do it everytime. Eventually, two things will happen – numbers of piracy events will decrease, and, US citizenship will have value abroad. The negative press that will surely follow any public execution is expected, but so what – we (USA) need to grow a pair and stop this. The Barbary Pirates learned that lesson – it can happen again.
We don’t understand these people. But, God does.
Let’s just kill them all and let Him sort them out.
Really should be 150 gallons (give or take) of bullet-laden chum off the coast of Somalia … you know, as a preventative measure.
All local boats found more than three miles off shore of Somali cost more than three miles should be stopped and searched….if crew is unwilling to do so, sink same……once the boats that leave the shore stop returning to shore, things will change.
Sorry about that…..I should have edited better before I hit “send”
“We don’t understand these people.”
Because some insist on considering them “people,” and think that merely being a member of homo sapiens confers a predilection to civilized behavior.
They’ve chosen to be animals in human skin. Expecting them to behave in what we consider ‘rational’ ways is foolish.
Let’s see, according to the link the last guy captured got 33 years. That’s 33 years on the American tax-payers dime worth of food, clothing and shelter (amortizing cost of const. of jail cell + guards fractional sal/day + bennies) NOT counting the cost to try him in the court system. PLUS when he gets out he’ll undoubtedly ask for asylum and avail himself of tax-payer provided health & welfare benefits while his case is pending……Now we add another 15 to the list………Are we having fun yet?
It costs roughly $35,000 per year to incarcerate a criminal. $100/day.
At $35K/year, times 30 years, times 15 pirates, the overburdened taxpayer is looking at $10.5 million.
Commercial 5.56mm ammo is running $0.30/round. Cheaper in bulk, of course.
I’m not having fun yet. But then, I’m not retired like VX. I doubt he has fun reading things like Lex’s post either. Retirement confers no benefit in that regard.
Let’s see 10.5 million to jail a guy for 33 years vs about 50 cents for a pistol round, works out to a ROI of 2.1 billion percent. Like I said in an earlier thread that is a very evil profit if you’re a moonbat. To me it would be a rather delicious ROI.
Kind of a no brainer if you ask me. Let ‘em go collect their raisins. Hang world opinion.
If on Guv’ment contract, with Congressional kick back markup, maybe closer to $1….still cheaper than the alternative..
Nah. The Government actually gets a bulk rate, even with kickbacks.
Although I suspect that if funds were really that short, we could pass the hat and raise enough money to deal with the problem.
Tell me what Sniper wouldn’t those varmints for free.
SK1′s not alone…read that “wouldn’t kill those varmints for free.”
So the ROI goes down to 1.05 Billion percent. I ahve no trouble for that kind of ROI. Do you?
I don’t think they do that to Russian captives.
I’m waiting for the usual next shoe to drop that they’re looking into pressing charges against the nasty US forces who tried to rescue these hostages and ended up dispatching one or two pirates before they all gave up. And heaven forbid if they got roughed up. The CIC is standing behind our troops…WAY BEHIND (as the old saying goes).
The main social purpose of expeditious and public hanging of pirates was to send a message that all kinds of people could and would understand.
You don’t have to understand them to hunt them down. DO.WHAT.IS.NECESSARY>
The hostages were not their tribe and not their religion. Therefore they were worthless.
This is a well-known phenomenon in that part of the world. How is it that we are not taking this into account?
Discretion on how to proceed in such matters should be left to the commanding officer of the closest U.S. ship, and assets such as Marines, SEALs, etc. should be stationed on sufficient ships in the area that they can be used in such a situation within a few hours at most.
Don’t waste time trying to understand them. Just kill pirates on sight.
i understand these “people” perfectly.
that’s why my policy would be to sink every vessel found with weapons, boarding ladders, etc on board, on discovery.
just sink it and sail away.
Now can we use the Russian approach?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lXNbXR8qAc
This method has worked for 2000+ years.
It is astounding how the mass media, the world’s elite, and the Left had been entirely silent about the Russian treatment. I’m assuming Butch’s link goes to that video showing the Russian forces commandeering the kidnapped vessel, freeing the captives, bundling up (and mocking) the pirates, then sending them adrift tied up in their small vessel… along with timed explosives. Ka-Boom, and you can watch it all. If Bush 43 had done that, there would have been demonstrations around the world, along with UN Security Council measures and the New York Times giving their outrage above-the-fold expression for weeks.
There was no outrage around the world, no comment at all almost, none from the perpetually aggrieved and none from the human rights folks who constantly badger American actions. All you heard was the silence of respect, once again revealing those elements aren’t anti-war, they are anti-American. Considering how they are also bitterly enraged against Israel, it would be more accurate to say they are anti-Biblical, which taken to its logical conclusion, actually clarifies the matter.
Best regards, Peter Warner.
I agree. This same standard holds true when a journalist (usually critical of Russia) dies or more to the point is murdered in a mysterious manner in Russia.
Seems to receive little notice in the U.S. press.
In the words of Crocodile Dundee: “Shoot the dopey bastard(s)!”
Enforce a no-sail zone 1 mile out of any harbor, and sink on sight any vessel not in compliance. No exceptions. On the flip side of that, any foreign vessel sailing within 10 miles of Somalian shores results in the crew being taken into custody and the vessel sunk. We don’t need stupid people creating this kind of situation, and wasting precious resources better spent elsewhere.
…once the pirates understood that they were not going to be allowed to go ashore with their “booty”, the hostages were worthless to them.
It seems obvious to me….wonder why it wasn’t so obvious to the FBI hostage negotiators on board…..
Apologies if someone mentioned, but why did they leave out this stipulation:
“If you kill American hostages, we will kill you” ? Simple and basic, and to the point.
And I like the way the Russians did it.
That the ROE does not allow that is a shame to the Zampolits in the White House and Pentagon.
The one thing they should fear is the sight of the US flag, just as the Ensign of the Royal Navy was feared by Pirates in the so called golden age of Piracy.
“If you kill American hostages, we will kill you”
And everyone you know.
And your dogs, your cats, your goats, your camels, and so on until your memory is exterminated from the face of the earth.
With all due respect sir:
The word “we” is far too inclusive.
Although I object to understanding as a need due to facts not in evidence, I think that I understand them perfectly: They surrendered when faced with death. That means that they value their own skin.
The solution to this is simple. Anyone perceiving it or positing it as difficult is being disingenuous. Most problems like this are never about knowledge or understanding; they are about will.
One either has the will to do what is required, or not.
It seems so simple, really. They have hostages, we have guns. They release hostages, we don’t fire the guns. They kill hostages, we fire the guns and they become shark chum if they live through it.
At some point even a pirate has to understand the economic model that dying ain’t much of a living.
– Max
Mags, you are wrong. Not lead, no. Git A Rope. (or several) I know a former boatswain’s mate who knows how to tie the hangman’s noose, I betcha. Hell, if I still had my old Boy Scout literature, I think I could re-learn that right quickly. Shooting is honorable, hanging is disgraceful and ignominious. Disgrace and ignominy is what they deserve.
Oh, and none of yer merciful neck-breaking long drops, either. Hoick ‘em up to the yardarm in good 18th-Century Royal Navy style and watch ‘em wiggle. Then cruise into a Somalian port, drop anchor, man all weapons, and stay there until the birds and the flies have eaten sufficient, and the pirates’ relations have had a good look.
I am super-double extra-exercised about this, because (before my lawyer stole it) I intended to use my inheritance to buy a sailboat and do some single-handed cruising.
When I was a Scouter, we taught boy appropriate skills like tying Bowlines, monkey’s Fists, and 13 loop nooses. No properly trained Boy Scout could go without being able to tie a 13 loop noose. Once we trained one, the rest of the troop knew that important skill before the first camp out was over. Even the boys understood how important it was.
As said by Professor Turgeson (Sam Kineson) to Thorton Melon (Rodney Dangerfield) in ‘Back to School’:…”Good answer. Good answer. I like the way you think. I’m gonna be watching you.”
The “Reasonable Man Premise” is a form of the cognitive bias known as “mirror imaging.”
I’ve quoted you and linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms2.blogspot.com/2011/02/re-reasonable-man-premise.html
As in the mirror image of Sméagol and Gollum. Right?
As in the mirror image of Sméagol and Gollum. Right?
Not really.
More like the unconscious assumption that your adversary/target has similar goals, motivations, and reasoning faculties to one’s own.
I just don’t sense that from the interactions of “Sméagol and Gollum.”