Still raining command pins:
The commander of a guided-missile destroyer has been relieved of command while the Navy investigates allegations of misconduct.
The San Diego-based Third Fleet says (the commanding officer) of the USS Momsen was relieved Wednesday due to what’s termed “loss of confidence in his ability to command.” He was reassigned to a San Diego post.
A fleet spokeswoman, Lt. j.g. Beth Teach, says she doesn’t have details about the allegations.
(He is) the second Navy officer removed from a command in less than a week.
In my CO/XO tour, I personally knew of exactly one peer to be relieved of command over 30-odd months, although it’s fair to say that it was always easier for a blackshoe professional surface warfare officer to be relieved for cause than an aviator: Even if a pair of your jets clack into each other over the target, pilot error is generally preferred over command climate as a causal factor, just for one example. A squadron is a somewhat amorphous entity to get your head around – is it the physical plant, the jets on the line, the detachment in Fallon? While a ship is eminently tangible.
For SWOs the “don’t kiss” rule (don’t kiss a buoy, don’t kiss the ground) has been expanded from two offenses to three with “don’t kiss a shipmate,” while getting busted in a DUI has been a certain path to change of command with no band for at least 20 years. Navy has also taken to relieving COs for cause for being screamers, which was something much more tolerated in my youth. But even given the trivial expansion of potential offenses, we’re on a blistering pace.
Something has changed, and I don’t believe its intolerance for buffoonery from flag officers – the standards are pretty darn clear. Instead, it must be something in the culture. We’re either raising people to positions of leadership that they’re not qualified for, or people have come to believe that wearing that command pin makes them somehow eight feet tall and bulletproof. Or maybe some combination of the two.
I bet there’s some fascinating analysis circulating within the flag ranks, but as for me, I’m mystified.
I have been informed of the contents of the OPREP-3. Absolutely abhorrent and disgusting behavior on the part of the now former Commanding Officer. ADM Harvey at his blog has detailed previous firings (not this one, or the recently departed COMDESRON-1), and this is so far beyond the Pale that it shocks me.
“Special trust and confidence”. You get it with a commission, free of charge. Only yours to lose.
My guess is the same behavior is wide spread (pardon the pun) but ignored at lower levels, and it only gets exposed and becomes career ending upon change of command.
There was a reason the ancients said women on warships is bad luck. Life on a warship is not work at the office. Biology is a powerful force. We defy it at a price.
I think it is the command climate which takes in a lot. The Honors debacle shows a serious problem with people like Harvey and others. Frankly, it is the beginning of the end result of the corrosives that PC has thrown into the military machine. What is going on is too predictable.
It’s gonna get far worse after the DADT repeal is fully implemented.
Overall, isn’t there a decline in personal responsibility and accountability for actions? Perhaps the relieved individuals think it will never happen to them, they can get away with it.
There is no excuse for incompetence, abusiveness, conduct unbecoming, but I’m inclined to agree with QM on this causal factor: “Political correctness” has spilled into every areana including business, government, military. There’s greater scrutiny and reduced tolerance for so called “hostile work environments”.
Different context, but military servicemen/women live IN a hostile work environment. Instead of giving orders, will officers someday be relegated to giving “strong suggestions”? Don’t Forget to say please and thank you.
Lex’s house and his rules, but all of you between my first post and this one have missed the point. I implore you to wait for the rest of the story. We have women on ships now, deal with it.
Flatlander: wrong. Not even close.
QM: Even farther from the facts.
This has nothing to do with a wolf whistle/elevator eyes, and borders on assault.
Lex, do not want to start ad Hominem attacks/comments, please edit/delete as you desire.
Big Fred, The cited article is pretty spare on the details you mention and the comments were confined to this (I think). No doubt-there’s no room for the behavior you imply.
I’m addressing the overall command environment. If Fred wants to think that the presence of women is not corrosive, then that’s his privelege to blind and dumb. I have little patience with such people and don’t back down from them.
Yeah, we have women, and will soon have queers on ships. So what? It doesn’t have to be, and soon after we are tested, if we survive, I think it will come to a screeching halt.
As for the accusation of sexual assault, there are a lot of women out there that have no compunction about making such accusations when it is in their best interests. Feministas will do it in a heart beat and they are rarely brought to account for their perjury. If Fred thinks those thing don’t go on with Navy women then he can(remainder deleted to comply with the rquirements for civil discourse in Lex’s outdoor living room).
That’s just ignorant. The presence of women is not corrosive. Men who can’t behave professionally around women are corrosive, and vice versa. I refuse to assume the worst about the men and women of the Fleet, or tell someone they can’t serve because others might not be able to behave professionally around them. Not realistic, you say? What’s not realistic is thinking that we have the luxury of a homogenous Fleet. It’s a simple numbers game. The benefit we gain from their presence in the organization ultimately outweighs the cost of additional effort on the part of leadership. You are deluding yourself if you think we will ever revisit the idea of women on ships, or gays serving openly…history doesn’t work that way. You’ll be a much happier person once you come to terms with that.
Lex Specialis, your counter-argument can be rendered much shorter: Shut up, you explained. I just spent two days in a Navy Pride and Professionalism “course,” which consisted of a) the presentation of the new religion (like a religion, it consisted entirely of articles of faith, evidence be damned), and its apologia, b) which consisted of “We’re here, we’re queer, and if you don’t like it the Navy doesn’t need you. And in a perverse way, they’re right.
Specialis- Your assertion “The benefit we gain from their presence in the organization ultimately outweighs the cost of additional effort on the part of leadership.” tells me all I need to know about your viewpoint. That is the dogma of the diversity bullies, where no evidence is ever provided to show that the benefits of “diversity” actually exist. (Other than checking off quotas and cowing “leaders” into silence with the implied threat of being called “racist, sexist or homophobe.”)
However, there is ample evidence from across the fleet and shore establishment that mixed gender units may score high on the diversity scale bullies, but the turmoil and corrosive effects on unit readiness seem to far outweigh that. Unplanned crew losses due to pregnancy, breakdown of command structure from sexual favors or jealousies, lowering of standards to accommodate differing physical capabilities, etc all take their toll, in addition to the diversions biologically inherent in close proximity of youthful men and women in tight quarters for extended periods. Everyone knows these problems exist, but the diversity zampolits refuse to admit their corrosive effects.
Sadly, you are probably right that the subject of women on ships will never be revisited, and that will make the chances of recovering from our current spiral into ineffectiveness and unreadiness even more difficult.
DOD should be the force to defend our nation, not a petri dish for spreading the infections afflicting too much of our society.
The eventual result will be that those most capable of rebuilding readiness will be driven out of the service as lacking in political correctness, or simply getting out ASAP and holding their moral values intact.
Our service is rotting from the top down, but few will admit it let alone stand athwart the tide of political correctness that spreads the rot.
I successfully integrated four, count them, 4, ships from all male to dual gender. I think I know a little about women at sea in ships, underway and in port, Wheels.
Successfully?
BigFred, have to wonder if you are one of those who ascribe to the “E.F. Hutton” Leadership School.
You Talk. Your Minions Listen.
1977…
Alongside the USS LasSalle in Bahrain in the chow line. Our galley is shut down for some work.
Women aboard was an added attraction.
Casual conversation amongst their crew, “boned her in the f*c( pit” (or words to that effect).
35 years later, there is no “gender integrated ship” that does NOT have at least one of those pits. And we all know it.
Well. Maybe you don’t.
Sure you did Fred. Sure you did. Perhaps you also repealed the laws of Physics and Hormones while you were at it.
The presence of women in any combat unit is corrosive. If you believe otherwise, you aren’t awake yet. I’m not making a blank assertion, The evidence stares us all in the face and it’s erupting more and more as the rot continues. You’ve simple been a facilitator of the rot.
My puzzler puzzl’n as well Lex. I agree largely with your sentiments as well. I have no idea either.
Maybe you are on to something, “… somehow eight feet tall and bulletproof.” I never believed the stuff in “Block 41″ – maybe some people do. I’m just a few years older than these guys and gals – I don’t know.
There is something very wrong going on here. Look at the USCG – a smaller sample – but as a %, are they seeing the same problem as we are? They have womyn too. It’s not ignorance – heck this stuff is pounded in your head. I know from the Baghram P-3 off the runway, to a couple of ship groundings there are significant issues with people having enough flight hours/underway time – but the personal behavior stuff? You’ve got me.
I think we could use a more open discussion of the causes and punishment though. We don’t need to gibbet people from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge – but we do need to do more than we are now. Fear and shame can work wonders for some personality types. Quite and cuddly ain’t doing the trick anymore.
I could go for hanging Harvey’s corpse in Chains on the first island of the Chesapeake bay Bridge/Tunnel. After Honors he richly deserves such treatment.
After all I’ve read about the Honors issue, it seems that only Honors, and the Navy, paid the price to the PC Police.
“…Harvey Jr., said Capt. Honors showed “extremely poor judgment” in the videos…” Harvey showed extremely poor leadership judgement. What price has Harvey paid for his failure?
Wait, what’d I do?
I thought your corpse was in chains by the bay. I’m going to have to check up on my minions, it seems.
Sorry, not the good Harvey, the other one!
Seems as though it has been a one-way street (downwards) with a stop sign (for responsibility) at the General/Flag level.
The thin air at that level was way above my pay grade, but as I continue to read about the great leaders of the past (and a few current), the PC focus would not have been tolerated.
Marines, and to a somewhat lesser extent the Army, pay the price for incompentency in a much faster and more direct manner than do the sister services, IMO.
As others have said far better than could I, we will find out the cost when the butchers bill comes due -and it will. Rather unlikely we will have either time or space to recover during the next existential event.
Although the Momsen details are unknown and may be an entirely different species of misconduct, the others seem to mostly share the root cause of the erosive effects of political correctness corrupting a warfighting culture.
Throw in the Commander in Chief Bill Clinton role model for exemplary behavior, and we see standards being torn in all directions.
Meanwhile, the wholly owned subsidiary of the Department of the Navy, the Marine Corps, seem to be immune from the epidemic sweeping the USN part of the enterprise. Are they just quiet in handling reliefs for cause, or are they better behaved?
I still maintain that the firing of CAPT Honors was uncalled for and a cowardly caving in to the diversity zampolits. The others- probably justified.
Honors was payback for Graf. The militant feminists and gheys crowd demanded it. And the Navy complied.
Problem was, Graf finished just about two tours of command, and was known for her abuses, throughout the Navy. She got command and was kept in command because of her gender. Honors was fired from command in part because of his.
I’ve formed the impression that the Navy isn’t training potential COs well enough for that role. In particular, I think we’re seeing too many COs and XOs trying to be friendly…instead of maintaining old-fashioned command reserve.
As a “fail to screen, failed to promote, manditorily (is that a real word?)retired O-5, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the recent spate of ‘splosive bolts. I believe the vast majority of CO’s are straight up folks, full of personal integrity and so true to the Navy traditions they bleed saltwater. The continued blaming of the PC community (Capt Honor’s situation exempt) for lowering of core warrior standards is a weak excuse for CO’s not doing what is just plain right, honest and ethical. There will always be those who have visions of grandeur with command and blow it. If so, then blame former commanders who wrote glowing fitreps and selection boards who followed their communities’ guidance; selected the chosen ones and never once considered the Peter Principle. There will always be a few who are selected for the task above their abilities. Those are the risks we take to continue our Naval traditions. We will never be perfect…accept it, and cut those who demonstrate the lack of moral, physical and mental acuity to meets the needs of our service men and women who look up to the CO and XO for leadership, mentorship, guidance and discipline.
As they say. “You can’t polish a turd.” But sometimes it takes a while to for the gold veneer to wear off and recognize it for what it is.
Not sure how many people picked up on the significance of what BigFred said in the first comment, but if this CO’s conduct rose to the level of an OPREP-3 then this was not your run-of-the-mill firing. This was an event significant enough that someone in authority decided the CNO needed to be notified directly and immediately. In the case of some more ordinary misconduct, that notification would take a more sedate pace through various levels of investigation, letter-writing, and endorsement by each level of the chain of command.
Ken, thanks for the sanity-check. There are many things one can do over the course of a career and still survive.(Exhibit A: Me) Being the subject matter of an OPREP-3 is NOT one of them.
Yeah, I caught that too. OPREP-3 is nothing to fool with, and it doesn’t get filed on a whim.
I also caught BigFred’s having been made privy to the contents, which, given an individual’s general anonymity here, says something about a certain level of confidence or privilege he holds amongst certain of Navy’s leadership. Until proven otherwise, I’d let that be something of a moderator here.
To read an OPREP-3 you just need to go to the CNO page on SIPR. Nothing insider about it. Accusations launch OPREP-3s as well as real events. I’m waiting for more info.
[...] Lex’s ponderings, I am sure, echo many others’ thoughts as they look at what is going on. Something has changed, and I don’t believe its intolerance for buffoonery from flag officers – the standards are pretty darn clear. Instead, it must be something in the culture. We’re either raising people to positions of leadership that they’re not qualified for, or people have come to believe that wearing that command pin makes them somehow eight feet tall and bulletproof. Or maybe some combination of the two. [...]
It appears that the fallout is affecting more than just the individuals involved.
Compare this quote from today’s article…
…to this one from yesterday:
Shoot the messenger?
LT(jg) Beth Teach? Teach isn’t exactly a Navy name.
Callsign Blackbeard
That’s what popped into my head.
I may only be a JG, but honestly I think that this increased lack of good judgment is arising from the simple fact that some of the best JOs in the surface fleet have absolutely no desire to make a career out of the Navy. They are treated like absolute crap during their first sea tour and are stuck doing twice as much work because the ships are undermanned. A majority of my SWO friends from ’07 seem to be either looking to lat transfer or get out after their commitments are up. This negative atmosphere leads to mediocre officers who know how to make all of the wickets getting to positions of command when they aren’t actually good leaders (because the good ones have left to pursue careers in business, etc). The stress of command gets to them and finally their true colors show.
But see, there was that same perception some twenty years ago by another lowly JG.
Not implying I was one of the best JO’s, but I was smart enough to know that a lat transfer was best for my own good order.
Thereafter, the Navy got a much better product for an extra seven years.
My own two cents on the aviation side, where the officer’s mess at least doesn’t eat their young, but also from the maintainer perspective vice the more common aviator route. I haven’t been in too many commands but the ones that I enjoy and make me love the Navy/motivate me to work hard are the ones where the senior officer leadership rates and gives out jobs based on merit and where the chief’s mess works with and trains the JO’s and no one cares who gets credit -usually they give it to the junior E’s who end up doing the heavy lifting anyway. I also have experience with good old boy networks on both the O and E side, and commands where the Chief’s mess cares more about them (or specifically their in clique of favorite chiefs) getting the credit above getting the job done and see *all* the JO’s as just one more a$$hole that walks in the door that they actively work against rather than train and utilize. (I.e. to the point of predetermined prejudiced rather than rational discrimination based on personal experience, frankly sometimes the JO can be a basket case that even the best chiefs mess can’t help but that is rare.) This is to say nothing of seeing the Filipino mafia on the E side blatantly hand out better evals and more awards to Filipino sailors than to other races displaying the same quality of performance. My experience is purely anecdotal so perhaps others have seen other displays of racism, but in my experience -and I’ll probably catch some flak for this but I say it with no malice, meant purely as an honest observation- the Filipino mafia favoritism is pretty widespread. The other racism I’ve seen is usually one sailor on another sailor and often successfully handled when the justice is swift and certain. The latter commands I talk of above have been enough to make me seriously doubt now if I will continue with my Navy career as I’ve seen more and more of it (again, likely anecdotal at best) recently. In good commands I would have no problem recommending to friends the benefits of the service, more recently I think I would warn them of its darker side. The private sector where I worked for three years before the Navy has a profit motive and isn’t quite so much of a bureaucracy (where promotions are determined by people who’ve mostly never worked with you in the middle of Tennessee) so when good old boy networks exist there it’s far more often the result of union membership or tenure rules. In purely competitive work environments good old boy networks that didn’t utilize their assets fully and ate their young ran certainly existed but to a lesser degree since they ran the serious risk of driving themselves to the unemployment line as a result of their actions, a danger that doesn’t exist as much in the service or union.
A long $0.02, and, unfortunately, don’t know how relevant it is to the trend that is the subject of the post, other than the tangential truism that command climate certainly matters.
“at least doesn’t eat their young” I believe that was a shaded reference to the SWO community which, back in the 80′s when I was subject to it’s voracious appetite, was know for doing so. I’m guessing it hasn’t changed much.
It was easy to do one thing well.
It was a little hard to do 2 things well.
It was difficult to be competent at 3 things.
It was REAL EASY to screw up 4 or more things at once.
The only JO’s I saw with less than 4 duties were the one’s that had already failed being competent at all of the collaterals they got assigned. Yes, I failed that test too.
Dang, I thought sure I would find VX on this thread. I found a Youtube video that made me think of him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VBCbQb6oiI&feature=related
Note at about the :40 mark how she gets her wings pinned on.
Not exactly Blood Wings, but I bet it hurt a bit. He didn’t push too hard, though.
I always liked the Turkish Military. A tough bunch.
Yep, a lot of tough, mean, and nasty tradition there to live up to.
Sorry NAnonymous, but if you’re saying that the wardrooms are undermanned I’m calling shenanigans. Far from it, the wardrooms are so bloated that they have to make up positions for 1st tour DIVOs (Engineering Training Officer, Electronic Warfare Officer, 2nd Lt … all these on small boys). I believe that the more responsibility a JO is handed, the more invested the JO feels in the ship’s product and in the Navy’s mission as a whole. Conversely, if a ship can only spare 3 sailors and a SLQ-32 for an Ensign, that JO sees himself as less a part of the team and the Navy as a whole.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/04/navy-co-fired-destroyer-momsen-042811w/
A cut and paste from my morning email. Relevant, of course.
Navy Establishes Training for Skippers Being Relieved
By Davy Jones – Staff writer
Posted: Friday Apr 21, 2011 11:18:23 EDT
Pensacola, Florida – The Navy command charged with setting training standards for everything from teaching sailors how to fold their underwear in basic training to battle operations on the Navy’s most sophisticated ships today announced a new training tactic designed to prepare commanding officers for being relieved of command. The six week course of study, officially called the Despicable career-Ending Event Preparation, or DEEP 6, will prepare commanding officers on how to salvage a shred of respect when the all-too-frequent career-ending event happens during their tour as a CO. Rear Admiral (LH) Tom Cat, Deputy Commander, Naval Education and Training Command indicated that this new training is designed to prepare commanding officers for the inevitable. “In today’s high-profile, politically correct Navy where every sailor has access to mass media, it’s more a matter of “when” a CO will be relieved, not “if.”" Cat said. The DEEP 6 course of study will be offered at major installations throughout the Navy and will be honed for the various command communities such as surface, subsurface, aviation, and the various commands ashore. Commanding Officers interested in attending DEEP 6 should contact their Type Commander as well as their detailer for scheduling the assignment of a prospective relief. The Navy Personnel Command asks that the request be submitted in advance of the career-ending event if at all possible. Additionally, they ask that terminal leave paperwork accompany the request.
Now there’s a program that will be killed because it just tells the truth…)
Typically opreps are easy to get to on sipr. I call it the board of stupid Sailor tricks
LT B:
Back when I was a JG lugging a Wells Fargo payroll bag look alike, and a 1911A1 with “Singer Sewing Machine, Inc” on the slide, up from the boat to a white two story shoebox “4 Star Hotel” inside a volcanic crater on a scenic tropical island, to pick up pink paper inside two envelopes, they had a covered board labeled the “ICFBI Board” in a room two cipher locked doors in. The subject matter was much the same. The upper left corner of the routing stamp had 7 letters in it, the first four were “CINC”. I asked the Master Chief who checked my ID against the appt sked/entry auth list if the big kahuna read that board often.
He said “Every day, Mr.”.
If it was an OPREP3 and nothing else is said, likely it was BAD.
Heterosexual conduct at sea, no comment necessary. Looking into the future, make that just sexual conduct at sea.
When an FO kills too many in row, time for a bigger FO to look closer. There is a senior officer syndrome where there is constantly a subordinate in the cross hairs. Tolerable for a short time if cleaning up the mess left by a “mixed personality disorder not treatable by normal etc etc”, and the tip off of a screw loose if the pattern persists. Tends to crop up when there are too many big dogs and too small a dog run in my opinion. Doubtless others will have a different analysis.
“Loyalty to the institution” is not the same thing as “Admirals can’t screw up”. If they couldn’t, Ironbottom Sound would have another name. The real greats don’t demand respect, they extend it. In my limited experience.
So true. That said, the smaller dogs still need to smarten up some. Too many of them are acting like it’s Friday at the frat house, rather than as Naval Officers in positions of command (and respect). Until then, the killings will continue without a bag limit.
I will never deny that some think scrambled eggs on the hat brim are the functional equivalent of a ghost dance shirt on a dog soldier, with the same result as seen in the Indian wars. Stupidity remains largely self punishing.
See also above my para 1 and 2 before the 3 cited in your excellent remarks.
I can’t see any harm in every blue suiter smartening up, or anyway, doing their best to. Bottom to top. I kinda think 31 Knot Burke might agree.
Doubtless opinions will vary.
Would that t’were so easy to jettison fumbleheads from the civilian side of the dividing line.
Alas, that’s the side that needs it most.
[...] Lex’s way of describing a change of command under unfavorable circumstances ,that is, the CO got [...]
Gentlemen, there is room on this board for respectful difference of opinion based on variance in experience. Please remember and honor that without ad hominem or I will ask you to seek your diversions elsewhere.
Relief for cause is a career ender, but it doesn’t seem to have much effect of others in command positions in the Navy these days. We are averaging a new incident about every two weeks.
When the facts on this case become known it should be apparent that the next step should be a General Court Martial. That “special trust and confidence” is supposed to have some meaning. It certainly is not a hunting license. And those who abuse their position should face the consequences.
Perhaps it is time to recall the fate of Admiral John Byng who, rightly – or wrongly, was held to a very high standard.
But, if we were to publicly hold a few to the same standards that we claim that are a part of our ethos, it might serve pour l’encouragement des autres!
There needs to be some accountability on the people that recommended them, and those that placed them in the positions they are being relieved of. Frankly, there are a lot on the O-6 level and above that should be finding themselves in the sudden retirement line.
Having viewed too many Commanding Officers being relieved for cause over the last few years, I can’t help but believe that there is a common issue at the core of most of them, not the details of the incidents causing the firings but some very basic issue. I don’t believe this basic issue has anything to do with fraternization, the changes in social mores of society, politics, etc., per se. Too many of these firings have occurred in too many varied communities through the Navy by too many different upper-level commanders. What’s the view of this from 40,000 feet?; most of the above views are from ground level and tend to focus on individual details and predjudices case by case. I’m with BigFred on this one; I served with six different CO’s on the same ship over a period of about 18 years and seven WESPAC deployments, albeit without women aboard, but with much looser and available diversions overseas. Each was definitely different in style and execution of leadership but I cannot envision any one of them allowing themselves to fall into the situations described for these firings.
I am convinced that we are seeing the legacy of the Bill Clinton “the meaning of is is” scenario. The big cheese got away with it and, some 13 years later, we have a generation of folks who may have, although they will not admit it, been influenced by that event. The boss was bulletproof, a term Lex has already used. Somebody tell me I’m totally wrong.
Can remember only one CO relieved in my 7 year tour in the 70′s, and that was because the squadron failed a corrosion inspection!