The UK are ready to position sea-launched Apache attack helicopters over Libya, according to news reports:
Apaches, which are being used in counter insurgency operations in Afghanistan, can manoeuvre and attack small targets in relatively built-up areas. Heavily-armed Apaches and French Tiger helicopters are equipped with night vision equipment and electronic guidance systems.
Gaddafi forces have shed their uniforms, are using civilian vehicles and hiding armour near civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools.
The decision to deploy the helicopters is a clear recognition that high-level bombing from 15,000 feet cannot protect civilians who continue to be attacked by rocket and mortar shells. It brings the Nato offensive much closer to the ground at a time when Britain and other Nato countries are insisting they have no intention of sending in troops.
However, the helicopters could be vulnerable to hand-held rocket propelled grenades and even rifle fire.
I’ve seen this movie before, and I didn’t particularly like how it ended. And in Somalia, at least, there were US Army Rangers no very great distance away ready to act as a quick reaction force.
Wasn’t this operation supposed to be wrapped up in a “matter of weeks, not months?”
Actually, I believe it was days not weeks. Oh well I’m certain he will show his awesomeness as President, any day now, or is that weeks, or months? Who knows. Hope for a Change.
The initial concept was that we could stop Gaddafi from making war on his subjects by striking at his war-making assets instead of him. We were so confident in our ability to do so that we even publicized that we were going to take that approach and that we had no intention of striking at him. Gaddafi continued to use massed armaments until our ability to strike at them had been demonstrated. So he took the obvious step of dispersing his assets.
The dynamics of this kind of conflict have been shown a number of times recently in the Middle East and in Eastern Europe. There is a group of people heavily invested in the status quo. Those people extend far beyond the leader’s immediate family and they will resist change because at this point the alternatives are between riding the tiger or getting torn to pieces by the populace you have spent your life helping to subjugate as you climb off. There is the additional dynamic of resistance from another group people who have been subjugated up to this point but see an opportunity to seize power once the outsiders leave.
I know this, sitting in my chair in the Midwest, because I’ve been reading the newspapers ever since Gulf War I. I read them to achieve the objective of understanding what was going on. Others read them to achieve the objective of using what they saw to get elected/re-elected to public office. Caring about understanding what was going on and how to match it up to our national interests was entirely secondary – or lower – on their priority list.
Those people are now in charge. I take that as demonstrated based on the fact that they are reacting to the new moves by Gaddafi instead of having anticipated them. New moves that are entirely predictable, as it’s exactly what happened in Iraq.
When are the adults going to take over from the children in running this country?
Bombing and shelling a civilian populace is an act of war. If you fight someone committing acts of war you are fighting a war. Air power permits you to prevent someone else from using air power and can provide a lot of help to assist ground forces, but only ground forces can win a war. Any day we say “We’re not sending in ground forces” we’re saying “We have no intention of winning this war.” But the people in charge won’t even admit they’re fighting a war, so what hope is there?
Allow me to react in a purely emotional and without due consideration for nuance, realpolitik and the global balance of perception and diplomacy:
Go Big Or Go Home. Cry “Semper Fi,” and release the MEU! Game over, thank you for playing.
Blackhawk down…..I agree, Lex. Same story, different day. However, how long before NATO makes the request of our Organizer-in-Chief for a whole passel of Predators and Reapers with the associated Hellfires? Better loiter times, no risk to aircrew, and best of all…..THE UNITED STATES CAN PAY FOR IT. Win-win for NATO AND the insurgents. Get the Great Satan to kill your enemies and then kill citizens of said Satan when you’ve taken over from Daffy.
My opinion…..build that tall wall without doors and let them kill each other off. Start over with the survivors, if any, if you really think you have to.
Geez. You just had to go and make a bad day worse. You and that durn logic of yours. Anybody ever talk to you about that?
It seems to me that this “Little Conflict” violates just about everything that Sun Tzu ever had to say about a war. All of that, PLUS our very own O’bozo, now touring Europe, has violated the War Powers Act by staying longer than 60 days… despite what he refers to as “incidental”.
Want to add a very good commentary I’ve seen on Libya vs. Obama:
http://www.cerescourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=3&SubSectionID=4&ArticleID=58264&TM=9451.332
That and our “Limited Role”. Whatever that means…
My favorite scene from “Blackhawk Down” was the one where a Soldier took a load of hot brass down his back, courtesy of a little bird firing a GAU-2 whilst passing overhead. It made me laugh, having been a recipient myself once upon a time.
The rest of the movie pissed me off, as Flailex’s are prone to do. Lex is right. The script was poorly written the first time around, and this do-over isn’t likely to play out any better. Fool us twice, shame on us. {sigh}
Helos are not and never will be “TACAIR”.
So, are they StratAir? I think not. If they ain’t “TacAir” then what say you they are?
Better Helo air than No Air.
Wow, the wisdom of dropping the carriers continues to shine bright.
I don’t think the Apaches will have too much problem with RPGs, their mission profile doesn’t generally involve an out of ground effect hover while troops fast rope out. Doesn’t make them invincible, but does make them harder to hit. Of course I have no idea what the British TTPs are. I do hope they have a good corrosion control program. Having been a Navy airdale and now being in Army aviation what we in the Army do for corrosion control is fine for the FOB/battlefield environment, but would be insufficient for extended at sea ops.
Pogue, our Apache Longbow fleet is something our political masters actually did a really good job on – amazing when one considers the military purchase/acquisition debacles legacy we are living with. We bought the Boeing Apache shell, kept the good bits and seem to have made the rest even better via our brilliant team at Westland Helicopters where all the construction work was carried out. Rolls Royce RTM 322 engines giving 30% more power, plus they spent a shedload of good intelligent money on the best countermeasures kit they could find. They also included a folding blade mechanism so ours could operate off our small carriers (now its just HMS Ocean as Lex i/d’d); an auto blade de-icer for the Arctic (redundent contingency in the current deployment). It would seem that they had maritime ops in mind. I do hope so for the reasons contained in your wise comments. To quote Ed Macy (decorated Apache pilot and author of “Apache” and “Hellfire”, from where I poached this info) the British Apache was the most expensive, and best, attack helo in aviation history. I think we bought a mere 70 and judging from the comments of my young foot soldier relatives in Afghan, they would gladly have 4 times that number watching their backs. As for the current news re the deployment of a mere 3 (plus the French of course), I think I share the uneasy feeling of our host. As a mere civvy with an interest, I’m thinking 3? Don’t Apaches work in pairs? Don’t you need 6 helo’s to have 3 serviceable? etc etc.
Without going into TTP too deeply, RPGs and rifle fire aren’t going to be much of an issue. Believe it or not helicopter pilots do have some intelligence and do give SOME thought into how to defeat the threat and get the job done. Yeah, Apache’s aren’t CAS and this doesn’t look like a really good fit for them mission wise, but it’s better than nothing and they’re more survivable than you might think.
In answer to the question above it depends on the mission if they are in pairs but yes Apaches don’t operate alone. No you don’t need 6 to make 3 most days. In Iraq the readiness rate was somewhere around 80%. Although I’m not going to lie, there were days when you would go through the entire fleet to get a team up. With all due respect to Mr. Macy and his book, he’s justifiably proud of what he and his mates did in Afghanistan, but I would take his judgments about the AH-64 in American hands with more than a grain of salt. But I’m an American AH-64 driver so I guess you would expect me to say that.