They leave something to be desired, in Afghanistan:
BRITISH soldiers who spot Taliban fighters planting roadside bombs are told not to shoot them because they do not pose an immediate threat, the Ministry of Defence has admitted.
They are instead ordered to observe insurgents and record their position to cut the risk of civilian casualties, in contrast to US forces who are free to open fire.
The policy emerged at an inquest into the death of Sgt Peter Rayner, 34, who was killed in October by an improvised explosive device as he led a patrol in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. His widow, Wendy, 40, said that in the days leading up to his death Sgt Rayner was told it was not his job to attack insurgents laying bombs.
Mrs Rayner, who lives with their young son in Bradford, told the inquest that the insurgents were being allowed to get away with the murder of British troops.
She said: “They are not allowed to fire on these terrorists. If they can see people leaving these IEDs, why can’t they take them out? One officer even told him [Sgt Rayner], ‘I am an army captain and you will do your job’. I believe strongly if people had taken on board what he was saying he might have been here today.”
Under the Geneva Convention and the nationally administered Rules of Engagement the 9,500 British troops in Afghanistan are told they can only attack if there is an immediate threat to life…
“There has to be an immediate threat to life and that’s a hard thing to prove. An IED does not count as an immediate threat. The Americans are different — their rules of engagement are pretty liberal. If they even suspect someone of laying a bomb, they can shoot them.”
British soldiers and Royal Marines have long fought bravely on the lines in Afghanistan, despite a lack of demoralizing lack of commitment and resources from government and the MoD. And it is important in a counter-insurgency not to overly antagonize the non-combatants.
But IEDs are the number one killer of coalition forces in Afghanistan, and emplacing one is an overtly hostile act.
This is just plain stupid.
Lobotomy. No one is born that stupid.
Liberals are. Just ask Flit.
Proof positive that the UK political class do not care about their military service personnel.
And if a homeowner hurts a burglar in the act of ransacking his home, the homeowner is prosecuted.
So I guess that the political class and the criminal class in the UK are birds of a feather.
Lions led by jackasses.
More correctly, Lions Led by Donkeys. Its always been that way.
After watching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Ru1c4SZKo I completly agree with butch, lions led by jackasses indeed.
AC, for another perspective on Sierra Leone ops, you ought to read “Operation Certain Death”
http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Certain-Death-Damien-Lewis/dp/B000LSXAQW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310380596&sr=1-1
England is doomed. And, it’s self imposed.
What are their children gonna think of them and what they did to the country their parents left them?
Unbelievable.
“This is just plain stupid.”
which would explain why it is policy…
All fine and good since the lads in the thick of it aren’t the heirs to titles. Might be a little different if Prince Harry had been on the receiving end of an IED.
Time for a Bombay and Tonic, at least the Empire got THAT right.
I think it’s been that way for quite some time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0BGKvFMkNg
We can copy many useful tactics from our UK cousins in the front lines.
But the REMFs back at the MOD can only provide bad examples of how to expeditiously destroy a military force, lose an empire, and place a nation in grave risk. Shockingly, those lesses seem to be the ones most eagerly sought by this adminstration.
Brings back memories of the Johnson/McNamara ROE on targeting in the north. Hope there’s a special hell for the fools that cause good men to suffer and die for purely political reasons.
This pisses me off. Nuff said.
Why don’t they just shoot the IED? After all, its the real threat. Then just let the chips fall where they may…
Depending upon the explosive, shooting it may not set it off. Still, it would seem a shame to not give it a try, and if the SOB holding said IED is either ventilated or fragmented I don’t consider that to be any major set-back.
Now that I think about it, what does one do with the body of a terrorist and a live IED? For the risk-adverse, like our British policy-makers, prudence would dictate that exploding the IED from a safe distance is the proper choice of action. I’m just curious if the body has to be removed first or if that entails additional risk?
– Max
The guy on the other end of radio has no balls.
GB has been the blueprint of our left for decades.
Self-defense is a basic human right. Take the shot and let’s go to court martial.
Rather be alive facing a jury of 12 defending why I killed the fool with the bomb than allowing myself to be blown up over poor decisions made by some Arse sitting in the rear who has no idea why it is important to allow soldiers to defend themselves…..
Or y’all could apply some common military judgement, look at what we’re trying to achieve, and then have a think.
Persistent ISTAR allows us to overwatch those positions being dug; we know where they are. The exam question is why are they digging? It might be farmers, it might be young men forced to dig an empty hole because the enemy are holding his family: you cannot tell intent from 250m+ out. However, kill the wrong person, and you can guarantee that you’ll have made an enemy of at least one family, if not an entire village.
I spend quite a long time educating my troops that not all “septics” are trigger happy morons who want to kill everyone within effective range; an article like this, and subsequent comments, do little to disprove their prejudices…..
“Septics”? Like septic tanks?
Freudian slip or some acronym I’m unfamiliar with?
Cockney slang, Liz. “Septic tanks” = “Yanks”
We are in the Presence of Greatness, apparently.
e.e. “like a septic tank…nobody likes a filthy stinking American”…your Mother flippen country indeed. Best
But we wash so much more often…especially with that terrible plumbing.
From this “Septics” point of view…you’re the Kumbaya singing…can’t we all just get along Moron around here…one who manages to get his troops killed while he’s hovering at a cool comfortable 1,000 ft. or kicking back with a cool one in the flippen rear area… Best
PS. As SK1 said above…”I’d rather be judged by a jury of my peers…than carried to my grave by six of my friends” .
PPS,…and thankfully…as the article says ” Americans are different”.
Septics is much on a par with limeys; banter that has gone both ways in my every dealing with the USN and USMC.
And you’ll note that not a single service person is complaining about the RoE, it is the mother of a Sgt killed in action. In fact, if you head over to arrse.co.uk (a fairly robust UK Armed Forces board), you’ll find a decorated paratrooper conceding that it does have a positive strategic impact.
At the end of the day, it’s your RoE, your Commander instituted courageous restraint, and we’re playing by our rules.
Wow, talk about a will to lose..
Wait! Traditionally even private persons have been allowed and encouraged to shoot people Dead Right There if seen planting a bomb, because the Common Law considers that just like setting fire to an occupied dwelling in the night time (original definition of arson), except worse.
AMENDMENT#93489321 (4TH EDITION) TO UK FORCES ( IRAQ ) SOPs: ACTIONS ON: IMPROVISED EXPLOSIVE DEVICE(IED)
1.Household Cavalry. Regard IED with haughty disdain and rustle Daily Telegraph angrily. Maintain presence of IED in Knightsbridge is “absolutely preposterous”. Return to regimental main effort of defending Central London from the roundheads.
2. Cavalry. Declare IED as best thing since tinned champagne, hold impromptu Pimms party to celebrate. Declare subsequent IED detonation as even more “wizard prang”, extend Pimms party and incorporate mandatory drinking of champagne from remains of IED as regimental custom for next 300 years.
3.Footguards. Reduce words-of-command and halting in quick time to a minimum. Deploy No.1 fatigue party in close-order to polish IED to acceptable standard, followed by No.2 fatigue party to paint IED blue-red-blue and swab immediate area. IED detonated by massed bands. Deploy 2 X Battalions- worth of fatigue parties to swab resulting mess.
4.Armoured Infantry. Fail to see IED. Crush IED. On realising error, detract attention by initiating faked contact against nearest dwelling using all available weapon systems. Hide remains of IED in sidebin.
5.Light-Role Infantry. Find IED. Fail to find solution to IED due to environmental differences to Salisbury Plain. Attempt cordon operation and set a new world record for miles of mine tape used. Withdraw to COB under cover of mine tape.
6.Parachute Regt. Decide IED is a “hat”. Deploy most junior paratrooper to “crack the hat’s skull”. Call the junior paratrooper a “hat” when IED blows him up. Remind all others that they are “hats” because they weren’t there.
7.Royal Marines. Declare that IED is “hoofing”. Get junior men naked with IED as an initiation. Turn IED into an improvised free-weight for bench pressing. Indent for extra, extra supplementary rations from “the galley”. Hoofing.
8.SAS. Deploy bearded men 200km behind IED using HALO-Landrover-Submarine insertion. Tab into area of IED and capture IED alive. Smuggle IED out in burka and extract to UK . Write a book per team member, all with hugely differing accounts of the OP.
9.SBS. Get into black rubber suits. Steal IED as above. Construct black rubber suit for IED. Move to a special swimming pool and do bad, bad things with black-rubber-coated-IED. Turn on wave machine and let things get properly nasty. Be very grateful for UKSF non-disclosure policy.
10. SRR (Spl Reconnaissance Reg’t). Dig hole in ground to hide in. Proceed to watch IED for ten days to make association to Bravos. Divert entire Brigades assets onto tasking. Manage to maintain dignity when informed three weeks later that it’s a small rock and not an IED.
11.Royal Artillery. Level entire area ten square kilometres around IED. IED still functional. Repeatedly remind everyone that artillery neutralizes, it doesn’t destroy. Create promotional video of IED neutralization with images of Apache and accompanying Tina Turner soundtrack.
12. Medical Corps. Send out a fit hottie to chat-up IED. Fit hottie lightly dabs a damp cloth over the IED to keep it cool and offers reassuring words. Ends up sleeping with IED before announcing undying love and marrying it. IED later detonates when it catches her in bed with an Irish Guardsman
13. Chaplain Corp. Approach the IED preaching about The Lord, oblivious to having entered a come-on. Rounds from nearby insurgents pass over and around the Padre without harming him. IED attempts to detonate and fails as some mysterious force prevents it from engaging. IED is later found giving sermons to scared soldiers new into theatre.
14.Royal Engineers. Destroy IED using charge with 10-times explosive content of IED. Build SQN bar in crater. Use second massive charge to blow second crater in which to build & celebrate opening of SQN bar/gym complex with BBQs every night for the rest of tour. IED appears on next SQN t-shirt.
15.Royal Signals. IED self-destructs to avoid WESTLANDS BOWMANISATION.
16. BFBS Radio DJ’s. Send shout-out on BFBS Radio 1 to IED wishing it good luck and playing ‘I Will Survive’. IED detonates out of shame and embarrassment.
17. Royal Military Police. Issue IED with penalty fine of £1000 for loitering and not having FFD/Tourniquet/Morphine. IED detonates in anger and annoyance at the
monkeys wasting its time. Surviving RMP’s issue IED with penalty charge for littering.
18.Army Air Corps. Identify ideal opportunity to prove AAC has an offensive role and is not just a taxi service. Launch TOW missile at IED. Missile fails due to armaments contract being given to cheapest bidder. Accept that was the AAC’s only missile and disband.
19.Intelligence Corps. Deny existence of IED to unit reporting IED, as they are not sufficiently cleared. Issue BG’s with a list of int-based questions to ask IED. Study Q&A analysis and find two main results:
A-Suggest IED may detonate having studied trend analysis of previous IED’s
B-Claim it’s part of a come-on involving 400 insurgents and Iranian heavy-armour, as that’s what the guy who cleans the toilets told them.
20.Div/Bde Headquarters. Issue IED with a notification of controlled explosion. IED ignores/deletes message, as does the rest of theatre.
21. RLC. Get pictures taken whilst posing next to IED with another Units GPMG. IED detonates due to someone making a video call on their mobile phone.
22. RAF. Send the RFS out to investigate IED; fail to notice they never come back. RFS patrol later found upside down in a WMKII in a ditch, in Syria . Patrol Commander admits to being a ‘bit unsure about his position’, is informed his position is now ‘Private’
23.Navy. Proclaim IED as a figment of the Army’s imagination. Go on a Mediterranean cruise for 3 months. Come back to Middle East waters. Proclaim IED as a figment of the Army’s imagination. (repeat indefinitely). Occasionally get taken hostage to relieve the monotony.
24. American Army. Send out a patrol in a hummer with Rhino deployed, then send out a Spectre gunship to destroy the nearest local village in retribution for when it all goes horribly, horribly wrong.
25. Australian Army. Threaten to withdraw entire countries assets from theatre as they heard a rumour there was an IED identified 50 miles south of their position. Demand hand-holding by other already over-stretched British units and then complain when we make them actively look for more IEDs’.
26. Romanian Army. Confuse IED with their gibberish native tongue. Sign the IED onto their stores and attempt to make it part of their armaments supply due to under funding by a government that’s abandoned them.
27 Danish Army. Arrive in theatre and promptly invite IED to their camp to join in their BBQ and Drinks sessions held every night. Eventually starve to death as they’d forgot how to open their camp gates on account of having never left. IED detonates to attract attention and help.
28. Iraq Army. Tip up five days after IED reported. Cordon area, remove IED. Corrupt elements of IA then move IED five hundred yards further along road and bury. Ensure MND(SE) that area is now clear.
29. Iraq Civilian. Dig up IED, take to nearest MND(SE) post and attempt to sell IED. Upon refusal, attempts to sell IED to MJAM. MJAM take IED and bury it at target area. Civilian digs up IED, takes to nearest MND(SE) post and attempts to sell IED. And so on.
30. UK Aid Worker. Show complete disregard for IED, fail to adhere to Foreign Office warnings on IED’s, pay no attention to MND(SE) briefs on IED’s and wonder what went wrong when their convoy gets destroyed by IED.
31. Security Contractor. Use innocent civilian children to test road ahead of patrol for IED’s. When child finds IED, claim child is insurgent attempting a come-on and shoot child. And his family. And neighbours.
32. Private Contractor. Find themselves lured to Iraq by greed. Make more money in a week than some soldiers do in a month. Laugh at poorly paid soldiers being blown up by IEDs’. Expect MND(SE) to help when IED blows them up. Wonder why we don’t respond.
I think they must still be using the last Ops policy.
I like #3, with the massed bands. But then, I’m an old Band nerd. At the right of the line, with the Colo(u)rs.
I do think that if we were allowed to play something like “Mit Bomben und Granaten” or the “Fehrbelliner Reitermarsch”, we could probably set that thing off at 100 yards.
Those tunes won the war with the next-door neighbors, once. They were playing their annoying rock and roll and keeping me from sleeping, so I pushed the speakers up against the dividing wall and laid my “Beliebte Deutsche Marschen” platter on the turntable and let them have it. The Band of the 11th Panzer-Grenadier Division came through for me. I didn’t even have to play the whole thing; about halfway through they banged on the wall and yelled, “We surrender!!
JTG: That’s a great tale
I was in a 3 tonner coming back from a joint exercise and my army chums started serenading us politzei with the below. By the time they sang it the 2nd time around we were stomping our feet through the floor of the truck. The villages of Wiltshire must have shook as we drove through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqlE9eNWYj4
It’s all about establishing Musical Superiority, as the Welshmen pointed out to us at Rorke’s Drift.
I am trying to get my pastor to incorporate some good old stirring inspiring Welsh hymns into the service, vice the silly hippy airheaded NewAge (rhymes with sewage) chick music, which is all the fashion these days. If you want more men to attend, do music which men can sing. (without feeling silly)
Don’t get me wrong; I love my local congregation in every way, except for the music.
Which sucks.
When it comes to liturgical music, I think anything composed in the 19th century is suspectably modern and needs to be investigated and vetted. That goes double for anything composed in the twentieth century.