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Red Meat

By lex, on August 2nd, 2011

Red Tails.

;

 

This actually looks kind of cool.

Of course, it might be we just saw the best five minutes of the film and will have to endure 190 minutes of race guilt.

But I hope not.

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August 2nd, 2011 | Tags: , | Category: Flying, History

34 comments to Red Meat

  • virgil xenophon
    August 2, 2011 at 7:26 am

    I always thought the flight discipline and skill they showed as evidenced by the fact that MOT A SINGLE BOMBER formation that was escorted by their unit ever lost an aircraft to opposing enemy aircraft was, IMO, ABSOLUTELY remarkable. Now, critics point out the non-arguable fact that they flew in a more lightly defended (relatively, very relatively, imo) theater, but I don’t give a damn if all the enemy ac were piloted by The Little Sisters of the Poor, not a SINGLE ONE lost?? What are the odds? Com’on..

    • Oldschool
      August 2, 2011 at 9:46 am

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen
      On 24 March 1945, during the war, the Chicago Defender said that no bomber escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen had ever been lost to enemy fire, under the headline: “332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss”;[49] the article was based on information supplied by the 15th Air Force.[50][51]

      This statement was repeated for many years, and not challenged because of the esteem of the Tuskegee Airmen, however, Air Force records and eyewitness accounts later showed that at least 25 bombers were lost to enemy fire.[52]

      The Air Force conducted a reassessment of the history of the unit in late 2006.[53] The subsequent report, based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, documented 25 bombers shot down by enemy fighter aircraft while being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen. According to the 28 March 2007 Air Force report, some bombers under 332nd Fighter Group escort protection were even shot down on the day the Chicago Defender article was published.[50][50]

      One mission report states that on 26 July 1944: “1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open.” A second report, dated 31 August 1944, praises group commander Colonel Davis by saying, he “so skillfully disposed his squadrons that in spite of the large number of enemy fighters, the bomber formation suffered only a few losses.”[54]

      Disputing this assertion, Alan Gropman, a professor at the National Defense University said he researched more than 200 Tuskegee Airmen mission reports and found no bombers were lost to enemy fighters.[55]

      In 2008, the St. Petersburg Times, quoted a historian at the Air Force Historical Research Agency as confirming the total loss of up to 25 bombers, where other units were often losing more than 25 bombers in a single mission. William Holloman, of Tuskegee Airmen Inc., a group of surviving Tuskegee pilots and their supporters, and a Tuskegee airman who taught Black Studies at the University of Washington and who chaired the Airmen’s history committee, was reported by the Times as saying his review of records did confirm lost bombers.[56] He further stated “the Tuskegee story is about pilots who rose above adversity and discrimination and opened a door once closed to black America – not about whether their record is perfect.”[53]

    • Peterk
      August 2, 2011 at 6:45 pm

      http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,120399,00.html?

      “Retired Col. Herbert Carter, who also was with the airmen in the 1940s, said the racism the men encountered should definitely be mentioned but not dwelled upon in the Lucas film.

      “So many want the movies to focus in that sense and that’s bitter history that has been thoroughly emphasized and publicized,” the 88-year-old said in an interview.

      He said the real story is how they blew apart the notion that blacks could not fly planes in war.”
      http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/06/ap_tuskegee_movie_061708/

  • Zane
    August 2, 2011 at 7:29 am

    I had a professor in college who flew as a gunner out of Italy, the roundtrips up to Russian territory for reloading/refueling and then back down again. The Tuskegee Airmen were their fighter cover, and he said they loved them. The very sight of their aircraft scared the bejeebus out of the Germans and kept them away. The greater threat they faced, by far he said, was the Russians.

  • Joe in N Calif
    August 2, 2011 at 8:27 am

    Of course, it might be we just saw the best five minutes of the film and will have to endure 190 minutes of race guilt.

    It’s a Lucasfilm production. Of course it is going to play on liberal white guilt. Heck, even if it just accurately portrays the racial bias of that era it will play to 21st century liberal white guilt.

    Might still be a good flick. Looks kind of like high end computer game got married to regular cinema.

  • mojo
    August 2, 2011 at 8:27 am

    Sittin’ em’ in Mustangs helped.

    Caddilac of the Sky.

    • Bruno
      August 2, 2011 at 8:57 am

      Sure it helped a lot; but at least in the movie they are up against some Me-262, so it was hardly a piece of cake.

      • mojo
        August 2, 2011 at 9:23 am

        The 262′s were nasty, but few in number. The Germans were transporting the jet engines from the factory to the aircraft assembly site via oxcart, there t the end. Which kinda says it all.

        Ever hear of this bad-ass SPAD?

        http://vnafmamn.com/Skyraider_vs_MIG17.html

        • david foster
          August 2, 2011 at 3:16 pm

          Alternate history: What if the Germans had been just a little more successful in jet development/deployment??…From what I’ve read, they made a mistake in using axial vs centrifugal compressors (manufacturing & maintenance issues), also Hitler insisted on fighter-bomber configuration.

          What if they had done it right?

          • virgil xenophon
            August 2, 2011 at 6:20 pm

            IIRC–or maybe IMHO–I think Hitler’s decision to make the 262 a fighter-bomber had a far greater effect on affecting the air-war than the teething problems with the axial-flow turbines, David.

  • Buck
    August 2, 2011 at 8:27 am

    CGI comes to Big Bang II: cool! At least what I saw here.

    As for the “190 minutes of race guilt?” Prolly. I sure wouldn’t bet against that.

  • Old AF Sarge
    August 2, 2011 at 8:50 am

    The Tuskegee Airmen have always ranked very high in my pantheon of heroes. How much more dedication can these men have shown than to fight for a country that, in general, treated them and their people like crap? Not to mention that they proved to be a Sierra Hotel fighter outfit. In that short clip, just hearing the P-51 rounds hitting the ME-109 left me all tingly! Man, I gotta wait until January?

  • Ian
    August 2, 2011 at 8:57 am

    Hope its better than the HBO movie. Cuba Goooding was in that one too.

  • FbL
    August 2, 2011 at 9:17 am

    I had the opportunity to meet a member of the Airmen, Shelby Westbrook (99th Squadron, 332nd Fighter Group, 15th Air Force) a couple years ago. He claimed they never lost a single escorted plane. In reference to Germans avoiding their escort missions because of their reputation, he grinned and laughed, and brought down the house as he exclaimed, “Racism does work sometimes!” Seemed like a really great guy.

  • Surfcaster
    August 2, 2011 at 10:03 am

    Such an important piece of history to allow it to get tossed to the alter of Hollywood feelgoodedness. May they tell the story right and true. Those men deserve that.

    There was a recent thread here or at Phibs (likely both) that notes how crappywood comes up short and have run out of material. Here is a chance to tell a story, well, about an important time in our history. Don’t screw it up.

  • G-man
    August 2, 2011 at 10:37 am

    They trained at the aerodrome in Walterboro, just down the road. Wife’s family has several old timers that were there during the Tuskegee training days. Some funny stories, some downright mean stories of conflict, and more than a few of what was then termed “uppity” black airmen wearing officer uniforms and doing things like giving orders to the local police, who then provided an education on “chain of command”. Shift Happens.

  • virgil xenophon
    August 2, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    Well, I stand corrected, then about their record. But as OldSchool points out (I REALLY should have checked WiKi) there loss rate was STILL remarkably low. They had a good story to tell as it was which is in no way lessened by this (to me) new info, thus no need to needlessly embellish it and hand their critics extra ammunition. The Chicago Defender and all other organizations–be they in the media or in the DOD–who long went with the original “no losses” story did the memory of the Tuskegee Airmen no favors in the long run..

  • Андрей
    August 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    Waiting for realese and hoping it’s not all the best of picture

  • Spencer
    August 2, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    Haven’t we already seen this movie? With Laurence Fishburne? And Cuba Gooding too???

    Anywho, who doesn’t like a good flying movie? :)

    Story: Back when I was in the media I interned at a paper close to the Air Conditioner Force Academy in the early 90s. I covered a Tuskegee Airman reunion at the AFA and Benjamin O Davis was there and was honored for something. Several other Tuskegee alums were there making it somewhat of a reunion. Anyhow, those Tuskegee guys kind of crowded the young cadets standing up front so regally at attention in front of the podium with their video cameras trying to get a picture of their leader.

    I had a beer with one of them later and seems he suffered through quite a quandry; he confided it was quite difficult as such a young lad to inform a decorated WW vet that decorum must be maintained and to, as politely as possible, get off the stage.

    Those Tuskegee guys, the few I chatted with, were nice folks. I being in my early 20s did not know the story otherwise I’d have asked more questions. Photographers dont usually ask questions. :)

  • XBradTC
    August 2, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    You want a good story of overcoming the racism of the 1940s, and paying a daunting price just for the right to die for your country?

    Try Kareem Abdul Jabar’s Brothers in Arms

    http://tinyurl.com/36ygyq5

  • Sarge
    August 2, 2011 at 5:51 pm

    I feel no race guilt over what happened before I was alive. I admit no culpability for anything that was done by others in the name of beliefs I don not share, & for which I have no personal responsibility.

    If race guilt is a vaild concept, then so are race pride, race hate, and race war, and I reject those concepts utterly.

  • Todd
    August 2, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    For the first 25 seconds or so of the clip, I was trying to figure out if this was a preview for a movie, or a video game? The flight scenes didn’t look so much CGI as video-gamish, to me…or are the lines blurring because video games are getting that good? (Not a gamer, myself – I only know what I see in commercials).

  • Robert
    August 3, 2011 at 1:07 am

    Some video games are nearly that good. The technology is basically the same, but the movies aren’t trying to squeeze 30+ frames a second out of generally less than $1000 of hardware. This has been true since around Toy Story.

    The approximate quality difference between the movies and the video games is blurring. During the Toy Story era, the quality difference was a lot more noticeable. But, the closer you get to 100%, the harder it is to tell the difference.

    The big difference these days is in the little stuff. Most flight sims don’t perfectly simulate the states of all external controls and devices, although there are a couple of exceptions. NONE of them worry about truly detailed and humanized portrayals of the visible pilots and crew. That kind of stuff is too expensive to render, rarely visible to other players, who somewhat busy flying their own aircraft.

    For that matter, there have been some pretty detailed reconstructions of historically interesting air battles. Same technology as the movies, but the script is more focused on that which was known to have happened, that which was inferred to have happened, and that which must have happened for the as-observed events to have occurred.

    Pretty, Accurate, Playable. Pick one. Or a bit of two. Or if you insist, not much of all three.

  • McThag
    August 3, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Are the tactics employed so obscure that they can’t hire someone to point out that the Germans didn’t attack in echelon formation?

    I fear we’re going to see way too many Me-262s, just like every WW1 flying movie (with a couple of great exceptions) ALL the German planes are Fokker DR.1′s and all the American’s are flying Sopwith Camels.

    Of course Hollywood gave us “Memphis Belle”. By the end of the movie that plane had been pretty damn mutilated. The one of the reasons the real plane was so famous was she did her whole tour without a scratch!

    Grumble grumble grumble.

    • Casey
      August 3, 2011 at 6:56 pm

      At least this version shows the Red Tails in P-40s for a while. I didn’t catch any Jugs in the trailer, though.

      Not to mention several instances of a B-17 receiving less than a dozen hits of 7.62 machine-gun fire in single nacelle, whereupon the entire wing either blows up or immediately collapses. Also not to mention the wide variety of camouflage & unit markings; weren’t the yellow-nosed -109s based in Northern Europe? Oh, well, at least they were Gustavs.

      • Joe in N Calif
        August 3, 2011 at 10:02 pm

        JG26, the Abbeville Boys, had yellow nosed 109s. Robert Johnson recounts several encounters with them in his book, “Thunderbolt.”

        Here is a bit about him, and part of an interview: http://acepilots.com/usaaf_rsj.html

        At the time, we had a bomber and a Piper Cub­type airplane ahead of us, and we let them land first. They said, “Bob, since you’re banged up, you go in first.” I told them: “No, I have plenty of fuel, and if I mess it up none of you could get in. I’ll just stay up here and come in last.” They all landed and got out of the way. I came in a little hot, but I still had aileron control–no problem there. I came in, touched the wheels first, then the tail wheel dropped. I had to hold the left rudder cable in my hand so that I could get to my brakes. The minute I touched down I was pulling on the cable, using the brakes, and was able to stop.

        • Joe in N Calif
          August 3, 2011 at 10:09 pm

          I gotta learn what I typo to send before I’m ready. JG 3 in Sicily had a yellow tip to the spinner, and the underside of the nose was yellow.

  • Casey
    August 3, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    I started another comment, but it got kinda big, so I moved the post here. Feel free to check it out.
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