I’ve got a jet to ferry from Point Mugu to Fallon and a cuppla flights on Friday. The last time I drove up there the logistics were daunting: Left the car on base, flew back to LAX from Reno, rented a one-way up to Ventura County, drove the car back down to Sandy Eggo. I don’t much care for the notion of going the wrong way when I’m going home. So today I’ll try the Coaster from here to Oceanside and jump a ride from there to Camarillo on AMTRAK. That way when it’s time to come home, my lovely bride may even pick me up at the airport, so long as I’m properly courteous and respectful.
In the interim, Max Damage sends along this video of Jack “Fingers” Ensch and “Mugs” McKeown having a frustrating day over North Vietnam, something old. The Phantom bubbas were wholly outclassed in a turning fight with the lighter and more nimbler MiG series, so they most of them learned some class of “magic move” as a last ditch when the BBs started flying over their canopies. Some of that “magic move” stuff was still being preached when I first started flying fighters, but I’d like to think we do things a little more scientifically these days. That’s no class of criticism – it was either that or go for a walk with a MiG camped out in your six – but you could never tell just which way you’d end up pointing once you’d flung the jet into a departure all regardless.
And Hogday sings a song to a warrior prince, something new. There’s an heir and a spare, and it looks like the spare is making a good account of himself.
With that as an into, the keys are in it.
Similar to an escape maneuver pulled by the RAF Belgique Pierre Closterman (“The Big Show) in a Temptest in WW II when he describes pulling throttle to idle jerking the stick full aft and to the rt in a continuous motion while kicking in full rt rudder. Best pulled at altitude, however. Closterman’s maneuver loses LOTS of altitude.
Variations of that maneuver have been around since at least WWII. Ed Rasimus, in his book “When Thunder Rolled,” talks about them at least mentioning such a maneuver in the F-105 school @ Nellis. Later, over NVN he got a chance to try it. In essence, he was pulling a hard left turn, but the MiG-17 was turning inside him and firing. He stomped top rudder and pulled back even harder. His description of the results of that maneuver are that the bird “flatplated” and lost lots of airspeed. For an instant the MiG pilot got a full top-on view of the Thud as it pitched up and rolled to the right. The Mig overshot. Rasimus plugged it into burner and the Thud easily outran the MiG-17.
My brother, a retired A-4 pilot, says he knows the maneuver well, but he didn’t have the luxury of an afterburner.
I wasn’t certain that the simulated video was accurate. I can understand having an OMG maneuver planned, and even one that threatens to cause a crash or separation of flight control surfaces from the aircraft — if you’re going to get shot down it doesn’t really matter if it’s by bullets entering or rivets exiting — but I just couldn’t see where the darned thing would actually pitch so hard it would start flying, or falling, backwards.
– Max
In talking to my brother, the sequence of events is roughly this: 1. In a coordinated hard left turn and at the buffett. 2. Feed in a bootfull of top (right) rudder and pull even harder. 3. The yaw from the right rudder, combined with the left aileron input, causes the left wing to be presented to the airstream and also causes the nose pitch up. 4. With the left wing being more fully presented to the airstream, it is generating more lift than the right wing; a roll to the right begins. 5. With the crossed control input still in, the aircraft is literally flying sideways through the airstream and continuing to pitch uup and roll to the right. 6. Flying sideways creates a HUGE amount of drag and the aircraft abruptly slows down by at least 200 knots. 7. As the combined pitch and roll brings the aircraft inverted, the control inputs are taken out (neutralized) and the aircraft resumes streamlined flight, but you attacker is now out ahead of you. In the case of Ed Rasimus, he was by himself and the MiG-17 was still in a position to get behind him again. The solution was to plug into afterburner and outrun the MiG before he could brin his guns bear again.
Any chance you can get a PPR at Magu for a rented Cessna? Seems like it would be worth the hassle and the rental.
Im gonna go out on a limb and guess Lex aint trying this in the Kfir.
Hey, delta wings are strong. Now, getting the thing pointed the right way afterwards might be a problem.
This must been the move in Top Gun that was classified at the time.
TOLD ya them things would fly sideways…
Cap – sounds like you are experiencing the West Coast version of ” Can’t get there from here…”
Speaking of that, I saw news today where Kabul/Bagram area of AFGHN (where I was hanging out until last Fall ) is experiencing the worst winter weather they have seen in 15 years. Kabul Airport was shut down for two days due to snow. Hard to believe as when I was there, temps were near 120-125 each day last summer…Most troops at Bagram are housed in plywood shacks w/o insulation and only a combo AC/Heater for comfort. Must be all but impossible for convoys to get supplies in there also.
Looks like I bugged outta there just in time….
Other news worthy of mention is the issues at our embassy in IRAQ – I was reviewing work there with a company that handled security and kinda glad I didn’t -
” After the American troops departed in December, life became more difficult for the thousands of diplomats and contractors left behind. Convoys of food that had been escorted by the United States military from Kuwait were delayed at border crossings as Iraqis demanded documentation that the Americans were unaccustomed to providing.
Within days, the salad bar at the embassy dining hall ran low. Sometimes there was no sugar or Splenda for coffee. On chicken-wing night, wings were rationed at six per person. Over the holidays, housing units were stocked with Meals Ready to Eat, the prepared food for soldiers in the field.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/08/world/middleeast/united-states-planning-to-slash-iraq-embassy-staff-by-half.html?_r=1
Read the whole thing….pretty crappy situation. I understand many in the field have it tough ( been there, done that) but we shouldn’t have trouble keeping an embassy operating.
SK1 – you need to provide phonetic spellings on those kinds of quotes:
Can’t get they-ah from he-yah.
Tried not to make others who read along here feel bad as they don’t share our charming Bostonian accent…I live closer to Boston where ” wicked pissa ” is the phrase you’d hear more often than not.
“Can’t get they-ah from he-yah” is more from our friends up in VT/NH/Maine end of New England….been there but I hardly sound like them. They call us ” flat landers ” anyways as we live in the area near the ocean and they reside in the hill country.
Southerners call anybody from the North a Yankee. Northerners say that only refers to people from New England. New Englanders say that a Yankee is somebody from Vermont. People from Vermont say a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast. That’s the way I heard it, anyway.
True about the “get they-ah”; it is more of a Maine-ism. Flatlanders – haven’t heard that in a while!
Wikkid Shahw-ka was more what I grew up with, being just outside of Boston.
All that said – I love the traditional New England/Bahstahn accent and I work hard to keep some of it in my everyday speech. Grew up in MA but now live in CT where it’s a little more New York than I like. But get me with someone who still lives in or near Beantown and the accent just comes roaring back. And I love every minute of it.
***sigh***
So the big question is: what did the good Cap’n leave the keys in – the big ass BMW car or the adrenaline junky ‘cycle. Or – is it the liquor cabinet?
Where is Virgil?
last I talked with him, in Baton Rouge.
Another one you hear sometimes after getting directions to someplace on Cape Cod is “…and if ya git to waata, ya went too faa.” (if you get to the water, you went to far.)
I was born and raised SW of Boston. When I moved out to Chicago as a HS Junior I was asked why I didn’t talk like Bobby Kennedy. I had to explain that there are at least 3 different New England accents; Boston, Southern New England and “Down East”.
When I first moved to CT I took no end of crap from my new co-workers about my Boston accent. There was no curiosity about the Kennedys – just teasing. Grrr.
After my father’s orders took us from Germany to Texas, we encountered people around San Antonio that called the Bawston Accent the Kennedy accent. We also quickly learned it was to tweek the noses of the transplanted Yankees around San Antonio that were forced into South Texas purgatory by Air Force orders.
“as Iraqis demanded documentation that the Americans were unaccustomed to providing. ”
I wonder if the documents they were demanding were official Government-printed portraits of Benjamin Franklin signed by the United States Treasurer ….
Mojo: Methinks you need to differentiate between having a trajectory of sorts and controlled flight. IMHO, no claim of experience based expertise implied.
Harry Wales seems like a very solid JO. We grandparents dote on all our grandkids, but his have every right to be well pleased.
So the F-4 could do something approaching the Pugachev-Cobra (or close enough) sometime before there was a Pugachev?
Or is this simply a case of praying you can back into controlled flight.
As for that maneuver, I have done it multiple times on the ski slope, just not in controlled flight, and usually proceeded by “watch this” but always ending with a facefull of snow.
Hogday, m’lad, if you all wish to loan young Harry to us over here in the Colonies, I think we might have some use for him, er, “in places.”
I’ve caught Mugs and Fingers telling that story on a late Friday evening at Hook. Much funnier when told with all the appropriate language in place.
ISTR one of them called it the “What The F%^&” maneuver, as one never knows WTF will happen once you spit out of it.
I think he’s done some scary sh1t at Miramar already Comjam:-/ I’m glad you are willing to have one of our Royals back – on `approval` of course! I hear that The Republic doesn’t do Royalty anymore (the White House certainly doesn’t), but I want y`all to know that I genuinely forgives ya with no hard feelings
I know he was out at Gila Bend a few months ago doing his Apache gunnery stuff. It’s a wonderful range out there – in addition to the Air Force fast movers using it Army aviation does AH-64 and UH-60 (such as it is) gunnery out there.
George III would not have dared to do some of the things our democratically elected rulers are doing to us these days.
Have any of y’all read “Juliette”, or “Justine”, by the Marquis deSade? I’ll take my oath, sometimes it seems like we’re ruled by people who get a charge out of hurting other people.
Wait a minnit! I thought we had a King in the White House. He sure seems to think he’s one anywayz.
Prince Harry spent time out in the SHITEWILDS in Helmand in a little COP called DELHI. I went there once and the place is smack dab right up against an Afghan village. The place was labeled ” RED ” which meant it was too hot for anyone unless you were on a critical mission. The place got hit all the time.
Diana’s sons have done well and are a credit to their country. I hope we can get on better footing with our UK allies once we send President Doofus packing. He has done more to set back the USA/UK alliance than any person in the past 150 years. We need the UK and they need us.
Elizabeth II knows about stock-breeding. Her horses tend to win.
She saw a necessity for an outcross, and recruited the Spencer girl for her good genotype. Unfortunately, Diana’s effed-up nurture overcame her excellent nature. Fortunately, her kids expressed the best of her genes and were mostly raised properly.
Prince Harry qualifies as Army Apache helicopter co-pilot VIDEO:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16959431
“Maverick” & “Goose” moves in real life…love it.
Prince Harry filmed piloting Apache in training at ‘Top Gun’ school Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oqkfkpcj9Y&feature=player_embedded
We had the pleasure of being next door neighbors to “Fingers” when he was CO of NAS Key West. He lived in the first old “Conch” house next to the BOQ and we were in the second. He and his bride are quality people. BTW, his name derives from the fact that he was missing at least part of one or more digits. Not sure where he lost it. Could have been when he was a guest in Hanoi.
XAB – Correct. It was his thumb he lost. He was injured when he and his pilot (who did not survive) were both shot down by a SAM over North Vietnam. He sustained a broken arm, hand, and severely damaged thumb. Although later doctors told him it could have been repaired, his thumb was summarily chopped off on a wooden block in the Hanoi Hilton, without any anesthesia. Now ‘thumbless’ on that hand, his callsign then became “Fingers.”
A superb individual BTW, from what I understand.
OT but Lex is not here to guard the hen house. Would this apply to anyone who frequents this site besides me?
“”…on rare occasions he showed flashes of stagnant intelligence. But his brain was so rotted with drink and dissolute living, that whenever he put it to work, it became like an old engine…..dipped in lard.” The Rum Diaries by Hunter S. Thompson.
The vast majority.
I represent that remark, XAB! In fact I totally resemble it!
Are you saying that you lot are always bladdered when you write up your comments on this site? Boy have I been fooled all this time. Must regroup, do a head count and manoeuvre.
I have never arrived at one of HM ships unwelcome or left one completely sober.
Well, yeah, that’s the Rum part, the fun part. What about the Sodomy and the Lash parts?
Same here, GBW. Had a memorable visit on HMS Dartington (minesweeper, now unfortunately razor blades) in Hong Kong in ’68. Watched the then cause celeb movie “Blow Up” in officers wardroom w. the Capt (RN LT) and XO while drinking RN grog. Great people and times..
Hic! (and belch, and beer farts)
Hmmm…
Weren’t many female birds in my day, let alone female commanders of fighter squadrons, but it seems things have changed:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/02/republican-military-hero-first-female-to-command-fighter-squadron-will-run-for-az-seat-left-open-by-gabby-giffords/
Byron et al,
Am I the only one not seeing comments on Sals site?
Flit – I had the good pleasure to cruise with Fingers as a JO. He was unassuming, humble, gentle, yet obviously fearless. I’ve heard that Mig shootdown story, complete with the words you couldn’t say on TV, probably four times, over auto dog in the dirty shirt. Neat to see it with the CGI possible today. I count myself lucky to be formed, to be indoctrinated into the sacred honor of being a part of Naval Aviation, by men like Fingers – tactically proficient, courageous, steadfast, yet fully lacking in overweening pride. I don’t know if future generations had the benefit of being of apprenticing under men like the Vietnam generation of Naval Aviation. I consider myself lucky to have had that honor.
There’s a story about John “40 seconds” Boyd, whereupon he has a standing bet of $40 in 1950 dollars that he can go from in front of a pilot in their F100′s and fight’s on to having said pilot in his gunsight in 40 seconds. Never lost the bet, according to all that google has to offer.
Made me wonder… Boyd’s talent was the OODA loop combined with a real mastery of his aircraft, not only in piloting but also in knowing how it performed where in the 3D battlefield. He put numbers and equations to what made an aircraft better than another.
I cannot seem to find what particular move had him go from a target to having a target in 40 seconds.
I’m suspecting it was something like what Jack “Fingers” Ensch did — take the aircraft out of bounds and bleed speed like a Prius up a mountain pass, forcing the other to overshoot as their reaction time adds to their miscalculation. If you can keep the enemy in sight and regain control, they’re ahead of you and reacting instead of attacking. Time is now on your side.
Has anybody ever read or heard of what Boyd’s 40-second strategy actually was?
In my bucket list, those things I think I should like to do before I die, I’ve jotted down viewing Boyd’s presentations. In spite of their fame, and unlike the writings of Patton, Churchill, Napoleon and Alexander and Sun Tzu, they appear to be made of pure unobtanium.
– Max
It’s been awhile, Max, but I think he would pull up in such a way to bleed off airspeed extremely quickly, basically using the entire AC as a flat plate, allowing the other pilot to get past, then accelerating to stay on the 6 of the other guy. I think I saw the story on “Eject, Eject” which is now part of Pajams Media and the story isn’t there anymore, alas. It’s probably still floating around the Innertubez somewhere though.
He discovered that the F-100 was a rudder airplane, when you held the stick all the way back, centered, and not quite stalling. You could then kick a rudder pedal hard and the thing would turn at an amazing rate.
Sorta like an old rudder-only R/C airplane from the 1950s, with lotsa dihedral. Sweepback is somewhat equivalent to dihedral.
Sometimes I suspect Boyd of having been a fellow Aspie. He was seen at least once, late in his career, curled up in the chair in his office and chewing on his wrist. But then, people sometimes report that having to work in the Pentagon can make anyone do that.
In the olden days, as an O-3 IP in the Phantom, I was always asked for as back seat guardian of the flesh for our O-6 Wing DO. He flew the bird like crazy except for the pulling hard part with the rudder. “Just a little more…” sez he. Stomp! The airplane does flip once the rudder does its thing and it goes where it wants to for a while. In 1964-65, we were told to pull the chute if it didn’t start flying again. Never had to ask the good Colonel to do that, thankfully. My arm was way too short to reach it from the back.
Well, yes. People like me and that Colonel do tend to do better with adult supervision. Providing that kind of supervision might be a good career path for retired Sergeants.
A slight distinction, here: Boyd found, I think, that you could do this in a (later version) F-100 without having it “depart”, just turn very quickly. The early F-100s, before they enlarged the vertical fin, suffered from rotational instability, if that’s the term. If one rotated one sharply about one axis, it would start to rotate about one of the others, too. Remember the physics demonstration where the Prof tosses the spinning eraser into the air? That killed some pilots before they fixed it.
Nonetheless, I find the prospect of doing Lomcevaks in an F-4 somewhat frightening.