The Flight Deck

Comment from Mike
Time: September 4, 2007, 4:50 pm

As far as the technical aspects of of what and how, there are several introductory type books out there along the lines of the “…for dummies” series of books. While I’ll probably get slammed for saying so, Tom Clancy’s series of non-fiction books might be a good place to start. A pretty good overview without too many technical errors.

However, I get the feelings that what you’re looking for is a little more beyond the what and how, transcending into the why. There’s two books I can’t recommend highly enough if you want to understand the warrior ethos and why people serve: Starship Troopers, by Robert A. Heinlein, and Gates of Fire, by Steven Pressfield. Both are very easy to read and both do an excellent job of describing the ethos. Starship Troopers is about a military unit in the distant future while Gates of Fire is about the Spartans and their stand at Thermopylae.

Comment from P-3W
Time: September 4, 2007, 8:42 pm

Thanks, Mike. Gates of Fire sounds more like what I’m looking for, but both sound good.

You’re right, though. I’m looking for the why. It was a little hard to articulate earlier, but that’s where I was heading, albeit the hard way.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Comment from SJBill
Time: September 4, 2007, 9:01 pm

Three books leap off the shelf for me to recommend:

Recent knowledge: Robert Coram, Boyd
Middle knowledge: Carl Von Clausewitz, On War
Ancient knowledge: Sun Tzu, The Art of War

All are available from http://www.abebooks.com for a mere pittance.

Boyd was especially enjoyable, though don’t know how it plays in a room of Navy aviators. Interesting story, nonetheless.

Have fun!
-SJBill

Comment from Mike
Time: September 4, 2007, 9:43 pm

The Art of War is very good and still applicable, and Boyd is a fascinating biography. On War might be a little dense but if you can work through it’s the gold standard for strategy as far as the U.S. Military is concerned.

SJBill, if you’re looking for the next step after Boyd, might I recommend this?

Coram’s Boyd was a good biography, but just barely touches on the essence of Boyd’s thinking and the O-O-D-A Loop. I’ve read a bit of Col. Osinga’s work and it is definitely interesting, if extremely dense. I’m planning on picking it up as soon as I can find the money.

Comment from Max Damage
Time: September 4, 2007, 9:57 pm

I recommend Boyd as well, and for other reading there are probably four different books about Patton done from his diaries. I found them illuminating, in that they show the step from tactics to strategy to logistics as one rises higher in the command structure. Privates worry about tactics, colonels about strategy, generals about logistics is the old mantra.

Clancy does a good read, can’t get enough of him.

One other I can’t remember, Marine who was all gung-ho, does the radio circuit now, moved to Australia several years ago. Hackworth I think his name is, the book is “About Face” or something like that. Gives a pretty good idea of what a mid-level officer is thinking of vs. what a corporal is thinking of. There’s some politics in this one, but as a diary of a man moving up the chain of command it ought to be valuable material for you.

Von Clauswitz and Sun Tsu are the bibles of strategy, just remember they don’t tell you what to do, they tell you how to think.

– Max

– Max

Comment from Steeljaw Scribe
Time: September 5, 2007, 3:29 am

Many come to mind — I’ll have to check the library when I get home tonight, but if it is the mind of the commander you are interested in, ‘Commander in Chief: Franklin Delano Roosevelt, His Lieutenants, and Their War’ is one of the finest books on the key flag and general officers that served during WW2. Pretty eclectic collection that includes Marshall, King, Arnold, Vandegrift, MacArthur, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Stillwell and LeMay. It was one of the required texts back in my JPME I course that I actually went out an bought to keep a copy for myself.
-SJS

Comment from KrisinNewEngland
Time: September 5, 2007, 5:01 am

P3-W: what a GREAT request, one that others without military experience can use as well – speaking for myself here of course. My first thought, which I figured was uneducated at best, was the Sun Tzu book – guess I wasn’t too far off the mark with that!

I’ll be vacationing in early November- might have to take a couple of the recommended books with me.

P3-W – thank you for asking this question!!!

Comment from craig mclaughlin
Time: September 5, 2007, 6:58 am

Off the top of my head:

“The Two Ocean War” by Samuel Eliot Morison, or if you’ve got time his official fifteen volume history of of the navy in WWII. He wrote lots about lots, and its all good.

“Men Against Fire.” by S.L.A. Marshall. He wrote a ton of other good books too.

“Strong Men Armed.” by Robert Leckie. Leckie is too often overlooked.

“With The Old Breed” by E. B. Sledge. Get the new edition with the introduction by Victor Davis Hanson.

“Ripples of Battle.” by Victor Davis Hanson.

“The Big E” by Edward Stafford.

“Clear the Bridge” by Dick O’Kane

“The Korean War.” by Matthew B. Ridgway.

“Street Without Joy.” by Bernard Fall.

“Hell in a Very Small Place.” by Bernard Fall.

“The Rise and Fall of an American Army.” by Shelby Stanton.

“On Yankee Station.” by John B. Nichols.

“A Rumor of War.” by Phillip Caputo.

“We Were Soldier’s Once, and Young.” by Harold Moore and Joe Galloway.

“In Love and War.” by James and Sybil Stockdale.

“The Ravens” by Christopher Robbins.

“Air America.” by Christopher Robbins.

Also you might check out titles by Cornelius Ryan, Stephen Ambrose, B. H. Liddell Hart, Edwin Hoyt, Max Hastings and John Keegan. Except for Keegan, thats all twentieth century stuff. If its the Civil War that interest you try James MacPherson, Shelby Foote, William C. Davis, or Bruce Catton.

Comment from P-3W
Time: September 5, 2007, 8:32 am

Wow, ask and ye shall receive. Thanks everyone. I’ll be busy.

I’ve heard of Sun Tzu, of course, but wasn’t sure if it would be for me. I read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich in high school on my own, but it was a tough slog. (Yeah, I was weird and I’m still a geek.) I’ve read most of Clancy’s stuff, too. I just picked up a Civil War book by James MacPherson at our church’s rummage sale that looked interesting and that started this whole process. Looks like it was a good, though serendipitous, pick since I was on the clean-up crew.

I just finished reading Shooter, an autobiography of a Marine sniper (Jack Coughlin) that was very good and complemented a History Channel show on the Iraq invasion, as well as the tearing down of Saddam’s statue by the Marines big machinery.

I appreciate the help with this. Thanks again everyone!

Comment from Jeopardy
Time: September 5, 2007, 9:33 am

Mike’s suggestion of Starship Troopers reminded me about the Navy reading list, available at http://www.navyreading.navy.mil/.

It’s broken down into collections based on career progression. Starts out with jr. enlisted, and goes up to senior leader. Lots of good stuff in there, arranged from beginner to advanced.
Some can even be downloaded in mp3 format from NKO, if you can get access to it.

Comment from Mike
Time: September 5, 2007, 9:36 am

The other services have reading lists as well, similarly organized and arranged.

Comment from P-3W
Time: September 5, 2007, 10:00 am

Jeopardy, that site has a supplemental section that lists books in different categories. I think the Naval and Military Heritage are the types of books I’m looking for. What a wonderful resource site!

I’ll have to check out the other branches of service to see what they suggest.

I’ve been slightly frustrated knowing that I wanted to know more, but not sure where to look or who to trust as a good source of information. I kept remembering the 2nd Amendment author who faked all his data about gun ownership being with broken guns and not so very many people having guns after all. He was thoroughly disgraced and debunked — eventually. But I didn’t want to be led down the primrose path on someone’s agenda through my ignorance when I was looking for a good understanding.

I knew I could count on some of you kind folks knowing where I should turn. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Ya’ll are great!

Comment from Bruce Jones
Time: September 5, 2007, 10:09 am

Ma’am,

Going along with the Starship Troopers line of military fiction, I’d recommend The Prince by Jerry Pournelle. Like Mr. Heinlein he has served in the military, and so writes from experience. The Prince is a compilation of four novels written as a series: Falkenberg’s Legion, Prince of Mercenaries, Go Tell the Spartans, and Prince of Sparta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_%28Pournelle%29 details the plot better than I can here. I think the Spartan novels will have some interest as there are certain parallels to Iraq. I’m not sure about these novels being required reading, but he edited an anthology series entitled There Will Be War, and one of those books was required for junior Marine officers.

Comment from Pogue
Time: September 5, 2007, 12:57 pm

You’ve got a pretty good list already, but a few of my favorites would be H.W. McBride’s “A Rifleman went to War” (WW1), “Breakout” by Martin Russ (Korea), “Operation Buffalo” by Keith Nolan (a friend of mine was there) and “Chickenhawk” by Robert Mason. And I guess I shouldn’t forget “To Hell and Back” by Audie Murphy. It does look like this is a well read crowd, doesn’t it?

Comment from craig mclaughlin
Time: September 5, 2007, 3:40 pm

I don’t know how could I have forgotten, “Chickenhawk,” it was practically required reading when I was in HT-18. In re Audie Murphy, I also enjoyed Charles Whiting’s bio, “American Hero.” Which reminds me of “Baa Baa Blacksheep,” by Gregory Boyington. In fact, there are so many excellent war memoirs out there you could spend a lifetime reading nothing else.

And in fiction besides “Starship Troopers” you must read “The Forever War” by Joe Haldeman. Haldeman was a Vietnam vet who also wrote a pretty decent novel about Vietnam. Webb’s novel was good. And don’t forget James Jones, James Salter, Irwin Shaw, Leon Uris, and Tim O’Brien. And of course, Patrick O’Brian and C. S. Forester. And Hemingway. And Evelyn Waugh. Also Ambrose Bierce’s Civil War stories are unforgettable and most of them can be read on line–check out “Chickamauga.” And Isaac Babel’s “Red Cavalry Stories,” if you’re interested in the communist Cossack way of war, are excellent.

So many good books, so little time…

Comment from P-3W
Time: September 6, 2007, 9:19 am

You said it, Craig. So many books, so little time … I know what I’ll be doing for a long while. I appreciate all the suggestions, everyone.

I hadn’t thought about fiction, but there are a lot of good books and authors you fellas have mentioned. You’ve all definitely given me plenty to choose from.

Many thanks ~ again ~ for all your wonderful help.

Comment from Paul
Time: September 6, 2007, 11:58 am

Pogue mentioned Martin Russ, his other book, The 38th Parallel, is an excellent grunt’s eye view of the Korean War.

Comment from BUTCH
Time: September 10, 2007, 11:52 am

Check out John Keegan and Victor Davis Hanson.